Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Okay, how about me thoughts on why that is? But I'm sure you hope.
Question is, are you doing it massively or abundance? Like, it's, it's.
What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Frank after 40. If you're looking to thrive in your midlife, this is the place from 40 and beyond. And today we have a special guest, Crystal DeSantis. Welcome, welcome today.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: I'm excited. Yes. This is gonna be, this is gonna be good.
Now, you know, as we, as we go through this, we're gonna talk about your book. We got some exciting things to talk about. We're gonna talk about your book. And as I understand it, you are a marriage and family therapist. I'm interested to talk more as well about the fact that you are a. You focus on men's mental health and healthy relationships. Is that right? Did I miss anything or is that correct?
[00:01:09] Speaker B: That's correct. Yeah. Those are my passions, passion populations, passion topics, my niche, all of it.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: Cool. I'm excited to have these conversations. And you know, the audience here most of the time, you know, doesn't mean that you can't be under 40, but 40 and above and thriving after midlife. So I'm excited to have some of these conversations because I find that they come up quite frequently in all ages of life, but especially things change once you get through certain decades and certain ages. And so I'm excited to have that conversation with you.
But out of tradition, we always like to find out how everybody starts out and what brought them to where they are. And so I'm curious to know for you, talk a little bit, if you wouldn't mind. I mean, we're going to get to your book. And I'd like to know though, how did you grow up? What was family life like? And how did you end up where you are focusing on this passion of yours now?
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Yeah, so I grew up with a very kind of traditional family. So my dad was the breadwinner, my mom was a stay at home parent. I have a large family. So, you know, my parents, you know, they believed in having a big family. And yeah, so I just, you know, kind of very traditional. If you go back in time, right, it's like, you know, there's the dad who works all, all day and comes home at night, and mom and the kids, you know, are just. Mom is the primary parent at home. And so it's just, you know, it's kind of lovely. Very traditional. I have a huge family. I'm the oldest of eight, so.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: So, you know, wow.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: Yeah. A lot of kids, you know, and so this is just the model of relationships that I grew up with. And, you know, my parents were lovely. They're, you know, good people. They're good humans. I love them as my parents. But, you know, the model of relation that I saw between the two of them, I just. It wasn't something I aspired to. Right. So I was like, I don't really. I. I don't really sing this for myself.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: In what way? In what way do you mean when you say that?
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Well, just thinking about, like, for example, my mom did not have a higher education, you know, so she kind of went straight from, you know, being a teenager to then, you know, being a young woman to finding a husband and then quickly becoming a wife and a mother.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: And so for myself, you know, I was thinking, gosh, well, I really want to go to college. Like, I'm excited to potentially have a career.
I, you know, I love kids. I, you know, have this big, huge family. But, you know, I don't really see. I don't really know if I see that as my number one priority, which, you know, I had sisters who really wanted to, you know, graduate, get married and start families, and I had friends that were like that. But for me, I was like, you know, that's great. I support. I support you. I love. I love that path for you, but I just don't see it for me, like, maybe one day. But right now I really want to go to college, get a career, figure out what I want to do with my life. I want to travel.
So that's what I ended up doing. So I ended up going to college. I actually went to an all women's college and, you know, just starting to live. Live my life. And I was, you know, working, going to school, and. And then my younger sister got married. So my younger sister was the one who was like, you know, wanted to get married right away, wanted to start a family.
And I was at her wedding, and I was like, oh, gosh, because, you know, my mom is Asian. And so in Asian culture, there is also this kind of tradition that, like, you know, the oldest gets married first, and then you kind of go down the line.
And so it kind of highlighted, like, wait a minute, what's going on with this one over here? Like, what's happening?
And I just. I just hadn't given it any thought. I was like, well, like, I don't, like, I don't want that. So what else is there?
And then. But finally I realized, like, you know, I Do want love. Like, I do want to fall in love. I do want a partner. But how do I do it? Right? Because there's this traditional model of, like, you know, what the tradition looks like. But I knew that didn't work for me. But I didn't see another model out there that was attractive.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Right?
[00:05:21] Speaker B: Because there was also the, well, just be single or just, you know, I don't know, be a single parent. And I was like, that doesn't sound great, you know, And I don't know.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: That was the next best someone gave you. Hey, just go be single.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so that's what I'm like. There's. I feel like there's, like, this huge missing piece here.
And so I did go on a dating app because, you know, I was with some friends and were like, just put yourself out there. You never know. Like, okay.
And I met my husband on this dating app, and I. I really liked him. And then I realized, like, oh, gosh, I don't know how to do relationships at all. Like, you know, I had ignored it for so long because I thought, you know, it's not really a priority. And then suddenly, when I was ready and I met my man, I was like, oh, gosh, I don't know what to do with this. Like, you know, like.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: But it's different. It's different, though, too, right? I mean, like, when I was dating, I'm date. I'm dating myself, but I'm 40, going to be 49. We didn't have dating apps, so that wasn't even an option. So I feel like you also have a bridge there between dating apps and no dating apps.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Like, totally.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: Totally. I'd be a fish out of water with that.
[00:06:29] Speaker B: Exactly.
And so, yeah, and I think that was kind of what I was realizing is, like, I'm part of this, like, middle generation of, like, you know, like, you're right. Like, my husband is a few years older than me, and he was married previously. And, you know, it's the same thing. He went to college or he graduated high school, went to the military, got married super young. He was like, 20, you know, 25.
And then he was divorced, obviously, by the time that, you know, he was on the dating app. So, you know, I was in this interesting place, as you said, of, like, this. This generation, where, you know, we're not necessarily growing up and marrying people from our hometown. We're like, travel, you know, going to different cities, and we're not necessarily meeting, you know, romantic partners the organic way. Right. Like, at a bar in high School. It's like, now it's on the apps.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: So.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: So all of that was just you know, really kind of swirling around for me. And then when I met my husband and I realized, like, oh, okay, so even though you. You get your partner, right? You find your match, what are the skills to keep a relationship going? Right? Because, like, I saw my parents, they stayed together, but there wasn't a lot there. And I've seen other people that, you know, like, with my husband, he fell in love, he got married, and that still wasn't enough to make a relationship last, right? And so I was like, gosh, you know, there's. There's gotta be some, like, method here, something that we're missing. Where's the blueprint? Where's the map to help people, like, not only find love in the modern era, but keep it and keep it successfully?
[00:07:56] Speaker A: That's interesting. I never thought about it that way, but I am. As you're explaining it, my brain starts to now say, okay. There's phases to this. It's like, phase one, find. And I don't want to say keep, but okay, decide, right? You're both deciding we're the people for each other. But then you do it, and it's like, okay, you get married now what? And I feel like that's what you're talking about. Like, phase two is, okay, now we have to make sure we keep each other. And how does that happen? Because we both have to. We have responsibilities to each other.
[00:08:24] Speaker B: Exactly. And then a lot of people, you know what I found? So then what ended up happening is I kind of went on Google and was like, marriage help. And I found a marriage and family therapist.
So I started going to therapy and started to talk to a marriage and family therapist, and, you know, started to understand, like, oh, there are people that. That, like, have the blueprint or can help, you know, bridge the gap from I know nothing about relationships to, oh, I feel pretty confident to handle, you know, conflict, vulnerability, emotional conversations, all of that. And so, you know, finding this therapist was like, a big aha moment for me. And then I was like, well, cool. I want to do that too. You know, I found it so helpful.
And so that's when I started to go to school for that. And that's when I started to realize, like, oh, exactly. Like you said, you know, people might come in for premarital counseling, you know, when they're in the love honeymoon stage. Like, oh, we found our person. We want to do this, but then you don't see them again until they're on the bridge of divorce.
And I'm like, no, no, this is like there's something missing here. Like we're not setting couples up for long term success. And often, I mean, like just with the theme of the show, it kind of shows up around like in the 40s, right? Because like people get married in their 20s and then life happens, People focus on their careers, they focus on like trying to buy a house. You know, I have a couple kids and so there's a lot of function ends up just keeping people busy and keeping them together. And it's almost like in their 40s when they can finally come up to breathe a little bit. That's where I saw people being like, oh, we don't have any connection anymore. The love is gone. And now we're just these like angry co parents or disconnected roommates and can we get it back? And sometimes they could, right? Sometimes coming into therapy with some intensive, you know, deep dive emotional work, they could get it back. And sometimes, unfortunately it's just too late.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: So, okay, I'm using personal experience. I'm thinking of friends, I'm thinking of other family and I'm. And I'm thinking about what typically I see come up and so I'm just curious to ask you. So if I'm going off my own experience, I've changed, right? I mean from when I was in my 20s to my 30s to my 40s, I'm like a totally different person. You find new interests, you, you do different things, you, more responsibility, whatever, right? So I think there's, that, there's the, like you said, you get into the work mode, you both are doing your own thing and you're just keeping your head above water. And then all of a sudden you realize kids are gone, our son is eight, so we're still in the middle of it, but kids are gone and now what do we do? And I kind of see that actually for a more like 60, 70 year olds even where they're like, oh yeah, we live together. Who are you and what do you like? Because we don't do anything together. We haven't for a while. How so what are the things that people should be doing? They get married, what should they start with to make sure that they maybe never get off track? Or what's a plan that they should be thinking about? Maybe from communication level or oh, here we go. Let's talk about the book.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: Bring it in, Crystal, the blueprint, right?
[00:11:30] Speaker A: You should ask.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: You should ask. But that's exactly it, right? Because I was like how do. Because of course. Right. The one thing that is expected or, you know, one thing we know about life is people will continue to grow. And honestly, if they don't continue to grow, that's not a great sign. Right. Yeah. So. And. And sometimes, though, that was the problem, Right. Is one person would continue to grow and the other person wouldn't, and then there would be this discrepancy. Right. Or, you know, like you said, people continue to grow and then they wake up one day and they realize they've grown completely apart. Right.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: So that was something that I also really wanted to put in here. Right. Is that. So a couple of things were driving my quest to create the blueprint.
[00:12:12] Speaker A: So the book, just so everybody knows, the book is called Strong, A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man. Right?
[00:12:19] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: And STRONG is an acronym. So STRONG is the six pillars of what I found doing my research, doing my clinical work, of what not only helps a relationship survive, but keeps it thriving.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Right. So these six essential elements. So that's really it. Right. So there's. I. I guess what I wanted to do is be able to share with couples, no matter where you are on your relationship journey. So maybe you're a single person and you're out there thinking, like, gosh, how do I pick the right one? Right. How do I pick the person that's not gonna, you know, I don't know, leave me out of the blue one day.
[00:12:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: What am I even looking for? So there are some things that I talk about in the book. So the S stands for safety. Right. And safety. I break it down into four essential elements of what are you looking for? You know, when I would talk to people about, like, how did you know? You know, what did love feel like? Or how was this person different than other, you know, partners you've had in the past, it really often went back to this. Like, I felt safe with them. I could be myself. Like, there was this ease. We met for the first date and, you know, we talked for six hours, and there's just this sense of. Of safety. Right.
And that was something that really stood out to me in my conversations with couples. And then when I went back into the research, that is totally backed up everywhere, Right. Like on a biological. On a neurophysiological level. Like, we're still just mammals, right? We're still just animals. And our bodies respond viscerally to safety or lack of safety, to calm or to chaos. Right. And a big part of what ends up happening, unfortunately, is that, you know, maybe Couples start out with feeling like, oh my gosh, I feel safe with this person. I feel seen with them. Like, this feels really special. And then they don't protect it or something happens and they stop feeling that way. And what happens when people don't feel safe? They get, they get a little like jabby, right? Doesn't feel good to not feel safe. We don't like irritates our nervous system. And that's where we get the fight or flight. We get the flop and freeze, we get the, you know, the activated nervous system responses. That's like the triggered states.
And that's what I saw. So with the, what I call the four S's of safety is, you know, looking for a partner who is self aware. They understand what they're bringing into the relationship, they understand what their, you know, their childhood, the impact it's had on them. They understand what they're looking for as well. Right. Because that was something else of, you know, the difference between maybe the more traditional scripts of like, what are you looking for in a partner? Oh, I'm, you know, as a woman, I'm looking for a provider. As a man, it's like I'm looking for a nurturer. And now it's like, well, you know, with all the choices in the world, like, what are you actually looking for? Who are you actually looking for?
And that's a question that previous generations really didn't have the option of asking.
So that self awareness of what are you actually looking for when you go into a relationship and do you know the impact that you're bringing into the relationship as well? Are you aware of that? And then the other three S's of safety are stability. One of the things I saw, unfortunately, that caused so much conflict in couples is just basic disagreement about what stability is looks like. When it comes to finances, when it comes to home cleanliness, when it comes to, you know, decisions for the children, basic stability is where I saw so many couples. I mean, there are books, there's podcasts, there's tons of things about just the discrepancy of like home chores. Right?
[00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: And so that again, I was like, gosh, you know, having the conversations about, like, what does stability mean to you? Like having conversations about financial stability, investments, children, standard of living. Like, why aren't couples having those conversations? Because at the end of the day, that's what you end up living in. That's what people end up fighting about, people end up getting divorced about. Right.
So having conversations about stability and how that creates safety and then the last two, which is self regulation and self expression. And those are really the communication and conflict skills. Right. So, like, when I'm doing intake calls with new people that are calling me for therapy, it often is these two things that are like, the. The big symptoms that are maybe representative of a deeper problem. Right. It's like, we don't have any self regulation. Our conflict spirals out of control. We end up getting really ugly. Or the self expression of, like, I want to connect with my partner. I don't have the words. They. They don't engage with me emotionally. Like something is going on where we can't express what we really need to say, so we end up arguing about dumb stuff. Right.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Yeah. No, that makes sense.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So anyways, I've been talking for a little bit.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: No, that's. That's good. No, that's good.
I mean, do we want to talk about any of the other act, you know, letters in strong, or do we want to, you know, wait till people get the book? Do we want to talk about anything? Maybe like T and R. I don't know. What. What is T and wizard?
[00:17:22] Speaker B: So actually, that's a good point. So I divide so strong, you know, six letters, the str are about emotional, are about relational survival. So if you don't have safety, the T is trust, and the R is respect. If you don't have safety, trust, and respect, your relationship is going to constantly feel like chaos and you're going to struggle to survive. Right? But then there are the other couples where they're like, we feel safe. We trust each other, we respect each other. We just kind of, like, are blank, you know? And so that's where then the ong part comes in, which is the openness, the nurturing, and the generosity of, like, the open accepting that you're gonna continue to grow. Let's be open to that, right? Your partner at 30 is not going to be the same partner at 40 or 50. Right? And let's accept it. Let's bring it in and then the end. The nurturing. What does it mean again? Sometimes some of this old language I heard about relationships is like, you know, the old ball and chain. Oh, I wish I could do the thing, but, man, I'm married now. And that's like, gosh, why would anyone.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: I've never heard that. I don't know what you're talking about. What is that about?
[00:18:27] Speaker B: You know, and it's like, gosh, you know, and I love the idea of a power couple, right? Where it's like, together we can Be our best selves. And, like, you know, my partner's happy for me to be my best self, and I'm happy for him to be his best self. And, like, we just nurture each other's dreams. And, like, everybody wants to be part of that couple. Right? Everybody wants to be that power couple where it's like, being with you makes me better. I feel nurtured by you. I feel nurtured by this relationship. I don't feel like I'm giving anything up. This is a collaboration that I could not accomplish if I was just by myself. Right. This is better than being alone. I mean, that's the goal. Right. As opposed to, oh, thank God, my wife and my children, or my husband's out of town. Like, thank God. Right?
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: I mean, we all need a break sometimes, but sure, yeah. Just that fundamental of, like, I feel nurtured in this relationship. And then the generosity piece, which is just, you know, I call it like, the fairy dust of the relationship of, like, you know, I feel so nurtured, I feel so safe. I trust my partner that I am able to then be generous. I'm able to then give to the world, give to my colleagues, give to my communities, give to my workplace. But it comes from a place of fullness. It doesn't come from a place of obligation. It doesn't come from a place of, you know, trying to check a box. It's like, I'm so abundant that I can be generous, and that's then where there's a ripple effect on children, on communities, on friendships, and it's just that little extra.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: So I mean, that's great. I love the acronyms. I think it's great, and it makes a lot of sense to me.
How so? Two questions I have listening to you. One is, how does the dynamic change with children? I mean, you did mention, like, making decisions for kids or with kids or what? I think that's what you said.
Or just having kids and being able to, you know, work within that dynamic. How do you. What's the best way for married couples, as they have kids, to include the children in decision making and, you know, making sure that it's an atmosphere for the whole family. What. How do you walk people through that scenario? Because I feel like kids as a part is, am I wrong? That kids. It's not their fault. But that's what really shakes things up. It's. First, it's like getting to know each other. You're getting a routine, but then you have kids. Now it's another routine. And it's like, I feel like a lot of married couples that I talk to because they're in that stage, it's like they just feel like, oh my gosh, at that stage that they're at. You know what I mean?
[00:20:56] Speaker B: Totally. And you're exactly right. I mean, I think also there's, and there's, you know, obviously we could talk about all kinds of stuff around this, but unfortunately. So there are two really type of relationships that I see. There are relationships that are based on function, right? We have roles that we play for each other. We function like we're co parents, we are, you know, co producers in this life that we have. Right. And then there are relationships that are based on connection. Right. And unfortunately, what I often see is that couples that are based on connection sometimes turn into function based couples when kids come, right. And they fail to maintain the connection. And so when you talk about keeping the spark alive is really about that, is recognizing that as a couple the goal is to continue on even after the kids leave.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: And keeping that connection as the priority. And that's sometimes so hard because.
And also this is where, when, when couples do not have the conversation about division of labor after children, about the roles of moms and dads, about the parenting philosophy that they're going to have, this is where people end up kind of reverting to their own, their own defaults or their own models. And that's where I see a lot of couples fighting against each other because it becomes like one parent and the kids or one parent and one child or you know, it's moms against dads, or you know, something gets lost in that that then feels like, okay, we're no longer connected as a couple. Because there's some resentments, there's some angers, there's some miscommunications, there's some maybe fundamental value things that we didn't talk about before and now we don't know quite how to navigate. But we've got kids, so here we are.
[00:22:46] Speaker A: I mean, how many people do you know when you do your marriage counseling? Because I know none that actually say before everybody says like, hey, how many kids do you want? That's about as deep as their kid conversation goes before they get married. So who the heck is going to be like, so when we have a child and he comes to us and he says, or she says, they won't do their homework or they how would you handle? Like, no one does that. So how are they supposed to navigate that? Should they continue reading how do they get that info? How do you expect them to navigate through that?
[00:23:17] Speaker B: So actually there are couples that are doing that.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: All right, fine. So I'm a bad person. Okay, fine.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: No, but I'm saying this is where the awareness is changing, right? That the, the younger, the couples that I'm seeing that are having those conversations are couples that are being intentionally proactive.
[00:23:35] Speaker A: Good for them.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: They're coming in young. I mean, I'm seeing couples that are coming in, you know, in their 20s that are like, hey, we're on our third date. And again, it's that proactive model rather than the reactive model. It's the treating therapy as like a gym for your relationship so you can stay strong. It's not the er, right. And for so long. I mean, that's how it's a good.
[00:23:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good analogy. Yeah.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And so that's why, I mean, that's part of why I also really am glad. Like, I wanted to start with the word strong and it really just turned out into this, like, great blueprint narrative, this acronym. But again, I really, and this is part of my mission is treating therapy and self improvement as like, absolutely essential. Like at the end of the day, like, okay, you can make a lot of money, you could buy a lot of houses, you could do a lot of travel, but the number one thing that informs your quality of life, and this is based on the Harvard research project, is the quality of your relationships. Right. And so if you're going to invest in anything, invest in the marriage, invest in yourself, invest in your friendships, invest in being the kind of person who can sustain and maintain healthy relationships throughout your life. Right. And that's honestly what I'm starting to see is the change in society is people are recognizing that simply kind of following a script of like, well, I'm supposed to do this, I'm supposed to do that, I'm supposed to get married, we're supposed to have kids. I guess we're supposed to, you know, moms do this, dads do that, is being able to say, well, hold on, what do we want? And then do we have the skills to actually do that?
[00:25:07] Speaker A: So it sounds like for the people who weren't as on the ball as the new 20 year olds, it sounds like the people that never did really come up with a good plan, what they should be doing is saying, okay, let's pause for a second and let's focus on ourselves and figure out, okay, what works for us. And then we parent from that point forward. Does that make Sense. Okay, absolutely.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: Because also, you know, coming from. I'm a marriage and family therapist. Right. So even coming from a child development perspective, having parents that are united on the same page, that creates a sense of safety for children. Right. Because there are so many people that I meet with as adults who, you know, tell me, like, oh, yeah, my parents were married. They're still married. But when you actually ask about how they were parented, you know, it's like, oh, you know, mom. Mom was the boss, or dad was the boss, or, you know, there was always conflict because they both wanted to be a boss. Or I could always know that, you know, when dad was in this mood, I could get away with this. And when. When mom was in that mood, I could get away, you know, and again, it's this, like, house divided, which doesn't really create a sense of stability and safety, even for children. Right. So having parents that are united front. And again, it's not about, oh, we never fight in front of the kids. I mean, that's a good thing. But I also saw that sometimes when parents would simply just not engage at all with the kids and not show them anything behind the scenes, that also, I was meeting people who were in their adulthood that same thing. They were like, we don't know how to handle conflict in a healthy way. Our parents never modeled anything for us. You know, they were like a smooth wall.
And so, again, it's this balance of, like, what do we want to model for our kids? Like, do we want to show them times where we disagree and then we make up? Do we want to show them, like, how we came to this conclusion about what our boundaries are, about what we will and will not allow for them?
And again, that really fosters that sense of safety of, like, hey, you know, ultimately, we're in this together as a family, but we are your adults. And as your adults, this is how we keep you safe. This is how we protect you. But this is also how you can earn your. Earn our trust. This is also how you can respect our family rules, and then we can respect you. And so, again, with the strong acronym, the strong model. It works on a variety of levels, but ultimately, getting the parents on the same page about what are the values that we want to embody, what are the values we want to teach our children and really kind of bringing it all. And you got to have both people on the same page to do.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: For sure. No, for sure. That's what it's all about.
Okay, before we leave this topic, I'm just curious to Know, I have my. My way, my brain works. I just have to know, what are the top one or two? I know there's a lot of reasons, but what are the one or two top reasons that marriages have major issues, you know, by the time they get to you and it's the, er situation, which ones are the top two that people need to focus on or that are the most common?
[00:28:06] Speaker B: I mean, it's. It's.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: If you had to pay.
[00:28:08] Speaker B: It's the communication conflict.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Which, again, I, I. What I talk about in my book is that, you know, most of the people that I see, you know, these are high communicators. These are people that are, you know, CEOs, these are lawyers. I mean, these are. They don't have problems communicating when it comes to, like, vocabulary. What it is, is how do you communicate vulnerably? Where it's not about making a point or proving the point. It's about seeking connection and seeking to understand.
[00:28:38] Speaker A: Right, Gotcha.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: And that's often what I see is that too many people, they enter into relationships maybe with the same skills that they learned in their debate team or, you know, in the workplace. And that's a very different skill set that's needed.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: So that's a perfect transition point, I think, to your other specialty, which is men's mental health. And I want to know what made you decide you wanted to. I mean, maybe this is. Doesn't make any sense, but I. I always find it interesting that someone would pick the opposite sex to focus on instead of their own. So why men's mental health? I'm just curious and, like, what made you do that?
[00:29:20] Speaker B: Well, I think that was part of it, right? As I was in graduate school, and I was, you know, looking around at my colleagues, and I was like, there's like, three guys in here. Like, what's going on? You know, if we're doing marriage therapy, you know, it's gonna. It takes two sides, right? So for talking about, okay, here are all these skills and tools that we can teach women. We can give them all these resources, all these, you know, support. Support groups, all this, like. And I'm like, what about the dudes? Like, yeah, this is not a. This is not a level playing field here. Right? And that's also. Then what I was seeing in therapy is that, you know, I would get sometimes these men that were like, you better go to therapy or else, you know, like, they're being sent to the principal's office, and they're like, I don't understand, like, what is what are you talking about? Like, and. And so just already kind of being on this, like, discrepant levels, and I'm like, nobody is winning here. Right? The men feel like, okay, here we go. Some ladies are going to tell me that I'm wrong and bad and everybody hates men and blah, blah, blah. And then on the other side, there's women being like, why are men so behind? It's like, well, yeah, there's a massive discrepancy in the level of support, the level of attention. How are we, like, who's addressing this? And so, for me, I was like, well, I mean, I'll do something. You know, I really enjoy working with men. I love men.
One of my passion populations was also working with veterans.
And so, you know, I was like, well, if I'm going to be working with men, like, I need to understand what are their needs, what is the hesitation of them coming into therapy, what are their fears about therapy? And how do I tailor my model and my approach so that it feels empowering for a man to come in to work with me? Which is also why my book is for men. One of the things I found is that, you know, often when couples come to therapy, and not always, but that, let's say the woman has already done, like, one or two years of individual therapy, and so she's got some language. She's like, oh, attachment styles. Oh, I've already diagnosed that. He's a blank, you know, and the guy's like, what is this? You know, I don't understand any of these words.
[00:31:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:27] Speaker B: And so part of it was like, here's this kind of. I mean, I call it a field guide. Right?
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: Cliff Notes version of like, all of this research of all of these different, you know, concepts. You know, I talk about attachment. I talk about trauma. I talk about triggers. I talk about the window of tolerance. I talk about, you know, all the boundaries into just kind of like a condensed way that a man could read it, understand it, and then see where it applies. And then that way, when he does go into therapy, like, there are some words, there are some language choices that he can use to feel like, all right, we're on a little bit more of an equal playing field here. Yeah.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Interesting.
And what is it about? I saw that you focus on veterans and first responders. And what. Why.
Why is that? And how does that differ from the typical man? If they're not a first responder or veteran, what are you seeing that are differences? And. And just I'm just curious.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: So I would Say that I grew.
[00:32:31] Speaker A: Up in a military household, so I'm like someone who was in the military. So I'm just curious.
[00:32:34] Speaker B: So one of the things is that, I mean, and this happens to men a lot, but it's maybe hyper obvious when it comes to military culture is that you as a person do not matter. You are. Your performance, you are a soldier. I mean, that's part of what boot camp does, is like you are no longer a person, you are now a soldier. Right. Your performance is what matters. And unfortunately what I saw is that, you know, that was a real struggle, especially for a lot of men who are transitioning out of the military. Right. It's like they didn't then feel cared for as people, as humans. Their mental health wasn't being cared for. Maybe even physical injuries they weren't feeling were being cared for. It was like you were useful. Thank you for your utility and goodbye, be gone.
And so that piece is there where I also saw that a lot of men, you know, that idea that we are only useful, we are only wanted, or we are only needed for our utility, we are not wanted for our humanity.
And that just led, I mean, that leads to so many, you know, self esteem issues. It leads to problems with vulnerability, it leads to numbing out. It needs, it leads to. And then also unaddressed trauma. Right. It's like being exposed to ongoing trauma or having your body be woken up. You know, being a first responder, you're constantly scrutinized, you're, you know, all of these things. Like this is a very dysregulating thing. And then to expect to then come home and just turn it off and you know, hey, I'm happy, nice guy. You know, it's like, yeah, it's a tough. And with no support. It was just, I, that's why my heart went out to that. I was like, this is just so hard, like to ask somebody to be on because people need you to be on, to be useful, to be utility perform.
And then, you know, where's the acceptance or the space for them to be human, to be a person.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: Yeah. You know what I find, at least from the small group of men I've known all throughout my life, which is actually a lot of men, but I find that they have difficulty having conversations around intimacy and emotional needs and those types of conversations with their wives, with any female really in their life. How do they, how can they be better with that? How can they navigate that better? I find that obviously as men you have to be understanding. You have all These qualities you're not used to using through a large portion of your life, and especially in the military, right? So how do you adjust that? How can they navigate that?
[00:35:18] Speaker B: It's part of when I want to, you know, start dispelling some myths, Right? I think there's, like, for a long time, there's this idea of, like, oh, that's just not how men are. Because men are not wired that way. I'm like, well, men are human, right? So men have emotions, too. Men have emotional needs. Men have needs for intimacy.
And yet, like you said, there's sometimes the overdevelopment of this, like, performance. You know, men need to be strong. Men need to be this. And so just encouraging that, like, you know, these are some maybe underdeveloped muscles that maybe just need some practice. Maybe you need some support. Maybe you need a space to work on that. And you definitely need a safe and supportive partner, right? Because I've heard this from men of like, oh, my wife doesn't want to see that from me. Like, she doesn't want to hear about my emotions. And I'm like, oh, well, that's. I mean, that's sad, first of all. And is that a healthy relationship? And then second of all, like, what would it be like if we tried in a safe way? Right? Because then sometimes I hear the opposite from the women. They're like, of course I want to hear about his emotions. He just doesn't share them, you know?
And so sometimes there's a little bit of. Of that kind of miscommunication of like, what. What is okay? What is not okay? Who does she want me to be? Who do I want me to be?
And so, you know, having a lot of those conversations, but obviously, like, I'm a therapist, is having a safe space to do it, right? It's like, you can read about swimming in a book, you can watch a exercise video on tv, but unless you actually do it, you don't know what it feels like. And guess what? It's going to feel really awkward, right? It's like you watch Olympic swimming videos. You're like, I could do that. And then you actually go in the pool and you're like, oh, this is weird, right?
[00:36:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: Not very good at this.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: How much of this? Well, before I forget, I want to ask you, have you ever read the Boy Crisis?
[00:37:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:37:04] Speaker A: Do you like that book?
[00:37:06] Speaker B: I think it's great.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: I'm just. Yeah, I'm just curious. I thought it was. I read that book maybe a year ago. It's a good. I Thought it was good. Interesting take on. On a lot of different things.
[00:37:16] Speaker B: The one I think is really excellent is Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves.
That's another one I would recommend.
Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, I'm glad there's books and conversations about this happening, because so much of this is, again, it's not a failure of men. It's. It's that this is like the way that society. The way relationships have been set up. And again, kind of talking about right now the modern couple and the modern man and woman are in this kind of state of flux. Right. It's like the old ways of, like, hey, the men, we're just protectors, providers. Just pay the bills, drink your whiskey.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: Get out.
[00:37:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: You know, that's not really the model anymore. Right. That's not really satisfying for a lot of men. It's definitely not satisfying for a lot of their partners.
But again, where's the new model?
[00:38:07] Speaker A: That's right. That's exactly it. Yeah. And I think. But how do you. I feel. I feel like I'd love to hear your opinion on this.
How many men are going. They don't even understand that this is an issue. Right. Like, they don't know that there should be a model, that there needs to be a model they just. Especially for. Because what would you say, anybody under. I would actually. I would say anybody under 35 or 40 would be the group that's kind of maybe the new model, if you want to call it that. That's still a long way that you have 40 and up still going through life for the next 30, 40 years. So how do you create awareness around this? I mean, I guess that's the focus is awareness to let. I mean, like, you're writing a book and that kind of stuff, but.
[00:38:51] Speaker B: And having conversations like this, you know, just trying to. Because, you know, I've worked with men in their 80s. I've worked with people that are in their 70s, and they're on their, you know, their newlywed. And it's like they want to do it right this time. You know, they've waited so long for the love of their lives, and now again, they're kind of coming in like I was when I was in my 20s in therapy. Like, how do I do this? And so I do want to send the message, like, you know, there are models out there. There are people out there that are talking about it. There is awareness that's starting to, you know, start coming up. And, you know, I mean, not every therapist might be informed, and not every you know, person that you talk to might want to hear about your emotions or not every woman is going to be a safe space for you to be vulnerable with. But, you know, there are people out there that are looking for others like you. You know, find your guide groups, find your tribes, find, you know, look around, find the therapist that resonates with you. Find the people that are looking for that next step forward, because, again, not everybody's there and that's okay.
But, you know, we're heading towards the tipping point and I'm excited for that.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's great. I think it's very interesting and a much needed conversation.
Is there anything else that we haven't talked about that you think is important for people to know? Obviously you want them to get the book because I think it'd be great for them to read. It's a great field guide, like you said.
What else? Is there anything else that they should be looking into or considering if no matter what the stage they're at on their journey?
[00:40:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a couple of things. So I have this, you know, my tagline for my, you know, like, on my email. It's like, don't be afraid to give yourself the life you've always wanted.
You know, like, I mean, you talking about, like, you know, over 40, after 40, it's like, no, I know we didn't get a chance to talk about, like, midlife crisis. And often it's that awakening of like, oh, my gosh, it's half my life is maybe halfway done. Am I living the life that I've always wanted? Am I. Am I experiencing the love that I was looking forward to, to? Am I being the family person? Like, am I having the experiences that I want? Or am I just, like, tolerating life?
Right? It's like, life's too short for that. Like, you only get one life, but you owe it to yourself to do it well. And sometimes, sometimes that means making a drastic change, but often it's just about going back and saying, what are the skills and tools that I missed that I don't have that would actually give me the life that I want, that would actually allow me to have the emotional experiences and the connection with my partner, with the sex that I want, the travel that I want, the. The, you know, connection with my children that I want, the friendships that I want?
Why? Why don't I have that? And maybe it's, you know, sometimes it's easy to be like, oh, it's because my partner, right? Or it's because I'm married.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: Pointing the finger. Yeah.
[00:41:45] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like, well, maybe, but sometimes it's. Maybe I don't have the skills for that. And I've seen people that, you know, they make a drastic change, they jump from one relationship to the other, and guess what? They repe. Same pattern, just with a new partner. Right. So sometimes. Yeah.
[00:42:00] Speaker A: How much of it? I mean, I feel like a lot of it too is, I want to say self accountability, but you. You have to hold yourself accountable. Let's just say that. Exactly. And. And you have to look inward as well. You can't point the other finger. You have to say, how can I be better? Where am I lacking?
[00:42:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's where that self awareness piece comes in. Right. The first step in having a healthy relationship is you got to start with you. But also, don't be afraid to give yourself the life you've always wanted.
[00:42:30] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:42:31] Speaker B: Short. Do it.
[00:42:32] Speaker A: I love that. Yeah, it's right in line with what I love to talk about.
So where can people go if they have questions or they want to find you? What would you like them to do? Obviously, we have the book Strong. We want them to go and buy the book. Where else could they find you?
[00:42:47] Speaker B: My website is Strong Love.
You're welcome to, you know, go on there. Send me a contact, you know, if you want to follow up, ask questions. I'm also on Instagram @atxtherapist because I'm in Austin, Texas, so atx therapist.
[00:43:03] Speaker A: Love it. Awesome. Crystal, this has been great. I really appreciate it. I think it's a really important conversation. So thank you very much for being here today.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me and for having this conversation.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: Of course.
All right, everybody, look, thanks for tuning in to another episode of Frank after 40, but if you're ready to make Midlife your best chapter yet, be sure to subscribe. Leave a review, share the episode with someone who's ready to level up, too, and listen. For more insights and resources, you can visit frankarita.com, you can follow me on social at Frank Carita. And remember, it's never too late to build wealth. Stay strong and live free. Catch you on the next one. Thanks again, Crystal.
